Michael Teachings Study Group

The Seven Roles => Sage => Topic started by: Wayne on April 22, 2011, 05:26:12 AM

Title: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Wayne on April 22, 2011, 05:26:12 AM
How great is the difference between a sage that is a good story teller and one that is a tactless bore? Is this a large divide or a fine line?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Betty on April 22, 2011, 04:24:47 PM
I think it must be a fine line, since people often seem to cross over it and back again with ease   :D
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: John Roth on April 25, 2011, 12:41:25 AM
How great is the difference between a sage that is a good story teller and one that is a tactless bore? Is this a large divide or a fine line?

Thanks!

Sages have three inputs, one of which is the Audience. A bore's best audience is always himself.

HTH

John Roth
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Jondalf on May 05, 2011, 10:48:55 PM
Bore I must be, and James Joyce, and Buckminster Fuller, and Willam James and William Blake, and Spalding Gray and Marshall McLuhan, and H.L.Mencken and ee cummings and Li Po and Frederick Hegel and Liebnitz and Einstien and Bohr and and and William Carlos Williams, one of the most revered 20th century poets, who said: "A good writer writes for an audience of one, himself." (as did every one of the above  .  .  .  interesting  .  .  . when art doesn't imitate life  .  .  .  hmmmm  .  .  . they must not be Sages.)
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Jondalf on May 05, 2011, 11:37:20 PM
So Wayne, let me ask you a question, since I dropped the ball and was inadvertantly rude to you in answering the first question which to me you posed.

(COMMENT NOT INTENDED FOR WAYNE: that IS the proper way to say that,look it up);{>

What is the difference between an Artisan that is an acclaimed success in their own lifetime, only to be later excoriated in critique down through History (like Milli Vanilli, or Rod McKuen) and an Artisan who labors to produce Art understood by no-one in their mileau, only to be revered by the retrospective acclaim of all critics (Van Goch and William Burroughs, to wit)?

This is a Zen koan, BTW, no 'right' answer.

Speaking from personal experience as both a "good" or "bad" Sage (I must have been a 'good' one in one lifetime, at least) I offer to you, and crew, the story I call:

"The Arjuna Argument"

It is said that one night, on the eve of a great battle, the Prince Siddhartha was unable to sleep, so he walked to his chariot to make sure it was ready for the morning's battle.  When he arrived he found his charioteer, Arjuna, asleep nearby.  Arjuna awoke, but, unbeknownst to the Prince, the Lord Vishnu had possessed the man's body and he arose and asked the Prince what troubled him, that he could not sleep.

Siddhartha sighed and said: "My friend, I have perceived a subtle but monumentally important "truth", that I believe has the power to free all mankind from suffering.  I wish to leave my current life, and try to explain it to as many as I can, but I do not know if I can communicate it well enough for anyone to understand it as I do, and even then, I may be wrong or no-one may wish to listen. Then I will have abandoned a life wherein surely I may be able to do some small good for a small number.  I cannot resolve this choice, what are your thoughts?"

Then Vishnu (as Arjuna) smiled the biggest smile the Prince had ever seen him smile, and he said: "I think people are like lotus flowers, growing in a pond. They all start out from the bottom and strive upward.  Your "truth", to me, seems like a few rays of sunlight shining on that pond as the flowers grow.  Some flowers, too far below the surface, will never be reached by your rays.  Some flowers, already having bloomed above the surface, will just wilt as you touch them. But, if, as you believe, this 'subtle truth' you speak of might, just might be what you think, and your rays reach ONLY one flower, struggling to break the surface, and give it the strength to bloom in the light, your decision to leave your current life to selflessly try to help a world that suffers is justified, for all time. This even Gods avow."

The Prince, at peace now with a confidence he barely understood went back to his tent, slept, won the battle in the morning, proceeded to the city of the King, his father, renounced his worldly life and went forth, never doubting his decision again.

This is the power of "The Arjuna Argument":  To me, it means if I help just one person, one time, in any one lifetime of mine, help them to free themselves or someone else from suffering, for that life at least, I've been a 'good' Sage! To me, nothing else truly matters.    - Jondalf
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Jondalf on May 06, 2011, 07:33:53 AM
To paraphrase:

Sages are pathologically driven, by their very nature, to collect and store data, knowledge and occasionally even wisdom. "Raison d'etre" being: to make sure said stored memes are distributed as widely as possible. Positive pole: Expression; Negative: Verbosity/Oration
Gifted to write and speak well, they often construct new forms of language, syllogisms and enthymemes.
Edified when center of attention, they seek the spotlight habitually.  Less than 6% of totality of Roles extant, only Kings are more rare (2%)

Combinations of Sage/King Task Companions/Work Groups can, by themselves, totally change the course of ANY shared Lifetime's ongoing Calculated Probable Timeline Vector-Sum, within that shared lifetime's alloted chronology. Think Arthur & Merlin.  No such dedicated combo has been known to fail the implementation of their preconceived agenda upon History, so potent is this dipole. There is no other two-part 'working group' as effective. The two group roles/positions being: Will (Physics), and Control (Mathmatics). Either can be embodied by either.
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: AnnH on May 13, 2011, 02:44:06 PM
A Sage who is acting out of the positive poles is actively using his/her audience input and paying attention to the energy coming from the audience.  In other words, the Sage is listening to the audience and attempting to speak a truth in a way the audience can hear/understand or feel and resonate with.  When I'm in the positive pole, I think I just want the audience to feel a little less alone in the world.  It's not about me but about them--the audience.  When I'm in oration, it's allll about me.

AnnH

Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Dave on May 14, 2011, 04:07:49 AM
My Sage father frequently slides to oration whenever he's in the car with me. I don't know if it's his ecstatic realization that AT LAST he finally has a captive, but his ensuing monologue of incessant verbiage often leaves me fantasying about driving the car into on-coming traffic.  ;)

Best,
Dave
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: jk on May 14, 2011, 10:27:46 PM
My Sage father frequently slides to oration whenever he's in the car with me. I don't know if it's his ecstatic realization that AT LAST he finally has a captive, but his ensuing monologue of incessant verbiage often leaves me fantasying about driving the car into on-coming traffic.  ;)
Oh gosh that reminds me of someone I know. I don't know their Role, but I know the feeling! And when she runs out of things to say, she will just start repeating the ones she has mentioned already. Sometimes I realise in the middle of the conversation she has asked me a question and I have no idea what she has been saying for the past few minutes.
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Dave on May 15, 2011, 05:47:13 AM
My Sage father frequently slides to oration whenever he's in the car with me. I don't know if it's his ecstatic realization that AT LAST he finally has a captive, but his ensuing monologue of incessant verbiage often leaves me fantasying about driving the car into on-coming traffic.  ;)
Oh gosh that reminds me of someone I know. I don't know their Role, but I know the feeling! And when she runs out of things to say, she will just start repeating the ones she has mentioned already. Sometimes I realise in the middle of the conversation she has asked me a question and I have no idea what she has been saying for the past few minutes.

Don't let that person get in the car with you. It could be dangerous.  :D

Best,
Dave
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Velleity on May 31, 2011, 08:01:38 AM
My sage sister is studying jazz singing, and recently has gotten a lot of praise and attention from her instructors, which of course she's excited by, and the praise is definitely warranted... but we had started to notice that it was pushing her into oration, or some sort of arrogance. "I just have to tell someone how amazing I feel I am!" (more or less exact words), and other little phrases of giving her importance "I'll get you that when I'm famous, you can do my cd's cover art...".

Last week one of the other singers sort of put her in her place, "H, you don't have to brag about how well you do... " etc. etc. which she of course got quite (hysterically crying) upset over. But as she does, she has recovered quickly and with a new family-consensus-ed plan of "not telling anyone how proud I feel except for my family members or my boyfriend". It's her new pledge.

So the other day my mother said H came home and said "Mom, I'm so proud, two amazing things happened to me today with singing and I didn't tell ANYONE!", literally in all naive sincerity! ;)
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: jk on May 31, 2011, 10:16:01 AM
That is funny, Elisabeth. This also reminded me of that person I have mentioned above. She is a decent amateur singer and is currently getting private singing lessons. She is soooo hooked on being good at it. You cannot give her any critical feedback without spinning her into a litany of self-justification. We are in a choir together, usually singing the same part. When someone gives us a feedback, she does not seem to be able to just take it on board and shut up. She will analyse and analyse and self-justify and dissect every stupid detail.
Her oration is not limited just to the in-depth analysis of her singing, another favourite topics are her boyfriend and her obsessive cleaning. It's like she's saying for several hours in a row "me me me me me me me me me me me"
I just started avoiding her, because I have a life.
At least your sister is seeing this issue to some degree in herself, this person just does not.
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Chiara DB on June 01, 2011, 08:52:07 AM
Elisabeth, your sister sounds adorable! And what is up with all the NZ people on this forum?? I lived in Dunedin in 2009-2010 :)
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Dave on June 02, 2011, 08:02:02 AM
My sage sister is studying jazz singing, and recently has gotten a lot of praise and attention from her instructors, which of course she's excited by, and the praise is definitely warranted... but we had started to notice that it was pushing her into oration, or some sort of arrogance. "I just have to tell someone how amazing I feel I am!" (more or less exact words), and other little phrases of giving her importance "I'll get you that when I'm famous, you can do my cd's cover art...".

Last week one of the other singers sort of put her in her place, "H, you don't have to brag about how well you do... " etc. etc. which she of course got quite (hysterically crying) upset over. But as she does, she has recovered quickly and with a new family-consensus-ed plan of "not telling anyone how proud I feel except for my family members or my boyfriend". It's her new pledge.

So the other day my mother said H came home and said "Mom, I'm so proud, two amazing things happened to me today with singing and I didn't tell ANYONE!", literally in all naive sincerity! ;)

Haha‚ĶVery cute!   :D

Right now your sister is doing fairly well in a relatively small pond, but as she ventures out into the world she'll discover that there are multitudes of girls her age who are unbelievably more gifted. It'll be a real game changer for her if she's not emotionally prepared.

I also think her tendency to showboat will disappear when she awakens to just how daunting musical artistry can be, and how much work is still ahead of her regarding her own shortcomings as a musician. And trust me, when she begins to chase that elusive specter of artistic perfection you'll see her former swagger get replaced real quick by a genuine humbleness.

Best,
Dave

P.S. - Is she listening to jazz instrumentalists, too?

 
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Nancy on June 02, 2011, 08:00:23 PM
Dave, I was hesitant to tell you this, but now I must.
Going to see Sonny Rollins in Wellington later this month  :-)
<running to hide now>

Blessings
Nancy
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Dave on June 02, 2011, 08:28:38 PM
Thanks for supporting live music.

Sonny is a jazz legend and a fairly approachable guy, too. And only 80 years young.

Best,
Dave
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Velleity on June 02, 2011, 11:35:49 PM
She's well into jazz school now. Aaaand, is definitely learning 'where she is', and knows how much she has to work still, and how much she will have to work once out of school (she told all this to me yesterday and I thought it showed tremendous maturity). She only has ideas of 'being famous' probably in the similar ways that I have of 'being famous'... in that it's an idea that's sort of connected to cardinality and being aware of the masses, knowing that we have something that can 'affect' them.

It's a tendency that we feel we can "take on the world!" but usually that's just a 'big' projection of something innately smaller scale, that of impacting people, no matter how many.

She's now getting to know the honors students and upperclassmen, and will be living with some hopefully soon (which means, going to more gigs, having a more musical social life), and for now she seems really excited with just 'being involved' and with being a part of a musical community.

Though... she is a favorite of Rodger Fox (of Rodger Fox's nz big band) if that's anything. At least, he often tells people (other professional musicians etc.) how tremendously well he thinks she's doing and how much she's improved after such a short time, how well she could do if she kept at it. So, things are looking quite well for her in that regard.

My sister's not really some jazz singing bimbo who thinks she's beyond everyone. lol. She does take it seriously and is very good, works hard, really respects other musicians and has a good modicum of all important humility. But, we all need some reality checks now and again, to get us back on track. Lovely Realist attitude. Can be quite handy. :) She just got carried away and over bubbly with all the attention and praise she was receiving. Was interesting, as I could relate to that feeling, of being happy and excited when there's a 'buzz' about you in an institution... except with her being a sage she just had to tell SOMEONE about it... "I feel stupid for saying this but I feel amazing lately!". Was a very interesting innocence attached to it. She only needed tugging over a leeettle bit... ;)

She does listen to instrumentalists. She played trumpet pretty well in high school, but I'm not sure if she'll take it back up.
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Dave on June 03, 2011, 07:41:06 AM
Hey Elisabeth,

I was basing my comments solely on what you said about your sister, so I hope you don't think I was discouraging her efforts. Her vivaciousness and talent should take her far.

A good example of a reality check for young jazz singers is Jane Monheit at age 22. Couple a rich, full-bodied voice with an impressive imagination for tonal color and improv and you get this:

http://youtu.be/OBPD887Luf8

Whoah! 

Best,
Dave
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Diomedes on June 09, 2011, 12:46:16 PM
As a sage, I am interested in your perspectives of the role.  I teach English in a college.  In fact, I have done this for 40 years.  Throughout my career, I have constantly struggled with the oration downside of my role. 

I find that if I cut back my verbage to the barest essentials, the students seldom get the information or appreciate it.  On the other hand, when I slip into oration, that is quickly a turn-off as well.

I have evolved to the realization that a full development of the material is necessary, spiced up with a large amount of humor, but that there is an exact point when I need to shut up and put the focus on the students and their opinions.  Often, this takes some form of group work for them to generate their ideas to the level that they feel comfortable in verbalizing them.

In class, another activity is to put the focus entirely on the author's work that is being studied.  Sometimes we will take turns reading short passages.  I model with pacing, emotional overtones, and precise emphasis on the key words (actually all the words).  Few of my students get very close to the heart of the material when they read a passage, but together we generally re-create the essence of the literature being studied.

My sage abilities, when handled with precision, help create exciting and interesting classes.  But when the oration kicks in, things go south in a hurry.

I hope this helps.
Diomedes
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Chrissie on July 08, 2011, 02:28:35 PM
Being a tactless bore is not limited to Sages.....I'm 4th level old and my friends bore the crap out of me!  I'm happy to return the favor.
Title: Re: Positive & Negative Traits of Sage
Post by: Jon on January 16, 2012, 05:40:55 AM
Hello, fellow sages. I express through writing rather than speaking or performing. I find it helpful to direct an input at a target audience when writing and reviewing a chapter or article, and imagine how a person from that audience might receive it. It's important to be very specific. This works for technical material, but not for a broad audience. I've had a very hard time finishing a novel because I can't find the proper audience and either get too technical or too bland; the balance eludes me.