Grand Cycles

[Anonymous]

Please discuss the dynamics of grand cycles. How can a fragment reunite with the Tao and still remain distinct?

[John Roth]

Please discuss the dynamics of grand cycles. How can a fragment reunite with the Tao and still remain distinct?

I haven't a clue.

Seriously, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that there are lots of pieces that I can't subject to any form of real world test, so I simply quit worrying about them. I'll talk about them to the extent that they make sense and hang together into a coherent system, but that's the extent.

HTH

John Roth

[Chiara DB]

Isn't the idea that at that point, it's no longer distinct?

[Chiara DB]

it would seem no great feat for such a cosmic emanation/expression/force to be able to remember which molecules of water came from a pond in the Andes and which from a glacier in Tibet as they both emptied into its oceanic omnipresence,

Very, very beautiful and moving Jondalf, thank you

[Jondalf]

There is a Theory, personally for years "In Held Twas In I"*:  When the Multiverse once again collapses to a singularity, as is its cyclic wont, many trillion years from now; those of us who have 'kept the faith' and survive down through all the long, dark, lonely aeons after the last star goes neutron and all remaining matter inexorably  .  .  .  slowly  .  .  .   moves to the center, may find fewer still that then remember the Oath:  "No living being should EVER be sacrificed."^  These last then will once again attempt what we KNOW to be possible, demonstrated by that miraculously lucky handful of Souls, who made it through the "last black hole" become solely energy: radiation remaining coherent through the event horizon and beyond as another "Big Bang" again begins the familiar expansion  .  .  .  diastole  .  .  .  sytsole, ad infinitum.  And if we have managed to hold on to enough, the nature of the next "Wheel of Dharma" may NOT be:  "Life Feeds On LIfe" ever again.   We pray that some new paradigm:  co-operative and NOT competitive, will prevail  .  .  .  and we will scrutinize with great care the new mechanisms of evolution as systems and data, and we will attempt to recognize any flaws that might cause suffering, and vow to carry our aspirations to correct such flaws through ongoing analysis and improvement as long as we can bear.

Thus, the repeated tempering of Will and drive to survive, and the testing, again and again, of the coherence of our creed through innumerable events of apparent total dissolution, which we know once again - through which we have managed to proceed and beyond which we have found ourselves AND our centers before - this  process of return to the raging entropy of THE Creative (Hexagram 1:  CH'IEN Force/Dragon) may be The Way The Tao forges itself to always progress, and improve.  So perhaps without this reunification - "trial by Dragonfire" - the ultimate test of one's faith in one's self: to dissipate entirely, and yet somehow to be successfully reformed,  proof of the preservation of self and the perseverance of purpose might not occur with as much persuasion and punctilio.

Perhaps THIS may be one explanation pertinent to your request: PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT ! Here is a hidden insight into a possible reason for multiple Grand Cycles if you, like me, accept the premises of the supposition of ultimate intent.  If so then here is a precious epiphany and solution to any self-doubt about surrender of self-control,  designed to recur as the compulsion to prove the truth of one's Faith through the experience of inevitable indestructability, absent of ANY control of self or assertion of control, thus confirming the ABSOLUTE and OMNIPOTENT essential control inherent In The Tao as illustrated through the conundrum of Return To The Tao  - theDalphe.


 *Procol Harum '68 ("to which I lend creedence")  
^Jainism: "ahimsa"

[Drury]

"We pray that some new paradigm:  co-operative and NOT competitive, will prevail..."  I've wondered why this paradigm necessitates killing as an inherent part of its structure, and how we can get away from "survival of the fittest" creating the best bodies for particular niches.  Could cooperation lead to vigorous growth as well?  I'd sure like to try!

I've struggled with the issue of losing "myself" through spiritual growth.  After reading quite a bit of Zen, plus other spiritual books, the intellectual part of me understands that what I think is "me" isn't really, yet the emotional part clings to my thoughts and everyday personality and drags its feet over spiritual growth because of the fear of annihilation of this "me."  I've asked Zen masters and other spiritually-oriented people for their take on it, and no one seems to know for sure the final result of merging back with the Tao.  I also tend to think the Tao is limitless and capable of anything, and no one need ever be truly "lost" in a large, amorphous blob.  I have read some books, maybe Robert Monroe or Michael Roads - can't remember for sure - where the author had the experience of merging with other beings, then pulling free and re-assuming the individual beingness.

I have the feeling the Tao is laughing at me since if I am the Tao, then what am I talking about?  
 

[Dave]

 I also tend to think the Tao is limitless and capable of anything, and no one need ever be truly "lost" in a large, amorphous blob.  I have read some books, maybe Robert Monroe or Michael Roads - can't remember for sure - where the author had the experience of merging with other beings, then pulling free and re-assuming the individual beingness.
 

You've somewhat described what happens on the Causal plane, where Michael resides. 1050 essences that all merge and become one, yet there is individuality despite the larger collective that works as a single entity.

Best,
Dave

[Drury]

You've somewhat described what happens on the Causal plane, where Michael resides. 1050 essences that all merge and become one, yet there is individuality despite the larger collective that works as a single entity.

Best,
Dave

Thanks, Dave, that's probably what I was reading about.  I've been wondering if the ability to merge and have individual identity, sharing but also retaining our individual strengths, experiences and growth, would remain even in the undifferentiated Tao, or would they be lost to “me” and be part of the general experience of the Tao only?  Do “we,” or the Tao, at some point make the choice to let go of what would end up being our illusion of individuality, as in are we at heart truly no different than the Tao, in which case my concerns would be entirely the Tao talking to itself, or were we at one point or from the beginning at least partly differentiated and will always retain the ability to enter that state?  Maybe Zen would say this is the little illusory “I” discussing the issue with the big “I” (the Tao) and therefore has no meaning.

I know I’m repeating my questions in different words, but I find the idea so interesting.  This is way into the future and I can at times intellectualize anything, but I’ve found that the future always gets here sooner or later.  A real bummer when I’m on vacation.  

Thanks for going into detail, Jondalf - very interesting.

[Betty]

Hope this isn't a dumb question, but I've read the Michael books, and I can't recall anything about Grand Cycles.  Did I just miss it in the readings?  Where did the idea of Grand Cycles come from?

[John Roth]

Hope this isn't a dumb question, but I've read the Michael books, and I can't recall anything about Grand Cycles.  Did I just miss it in the readings?  Where did the idea of Grand Cycles come from?

I don't remember it from the Messages books; it entered the teaching from some of the non-Yarbro channels and it's in some of the other books. Shephard discusses it in his books, and calls the part that carries over from one Grand Cycle to the next the spark.

HTH

John Roth

[Betty]

I'm still a little confused about Grand Cycles.  I understand the concept, but have a question:  when does a grand cycle begin and end?  For example, is Michael still in the same grand cycle that began with its first physical incarnation?

[jk]

Yes, Betty, that is how I understand it. A Grand Cycle starts with a casting of an Infant Soul from the Tao, progresses through all the planes, starting with Physical, and ends with rejoining the Tao. And is normally done at different worlds, as different species. As I understand it, Michael is still in the same Grand Cycle as their human incarnations on Earth.

One thing I have never understood myself - or just never heard more details about - is this - I can understand why would the Spark try various planets and species in its various Grand Cycles. But why does it always go through Astral, Causal etc again and again and again? What is different about those? And it has never been confirmed what precisely persists from Grand Cycle to Grand Cycle. It cannot be the whole Entity, right, since we would want to change Role, Casting etc. And our position within an Entity, Cadence etc. determines the Casting. Anybody?

[jk]

Re the individuality - I keep reading (from Michael and other comparable sources), that all this individuality is part of Maya. It is something we play with, but we are actually all one. This is incomprehensible to me, since I do happen to have an individual consciousness of myself. But perhaps through altered states of consciousness this could be broken through, if not fully, then at least glimpsed.

Besides trying to glimpse this (for example via meditation, or some drugs would also work), when I want to understand what would it be like to move from this individual consciousness of myself to be gradually replaced with larger and larger and more and more united consciousness, I remember that from what I understood from these high Causal or Astral teachers, is that there is no sense of loss. So for a metaphor, I would think of something I used to have in the past, and do not have anymore, and no longer need it or miss it and it would not even have a meaningful place in my current existence.

[jo]

But I would like to know something, about Grand Cycles, too. With more Grand Cycles, do you have more Experience or wisdom? As an essence?
But isn't wisdom and experience, at least, if you reunite with the Tao, given to the whole Tao, and in this way, to everyone/everything, who/what is reuniting with the Tao, after you (at the latest). But maybe, I know too less about this subject, and it's too complicated for me, yet. But I wanted to ask. 

Greeting, jo

[John Roth]

But I would like to know something, about Grand Cycles, too. With more Grand Cycles, do you have more Experience or wisdom? As an essence?
But isn't wisdom and experience, at least, if you reunite with the Tao, given to the whole Tao, and in this way, to everyone/everything, who/what is reuniting with the Tao, after you (at the latest). But maybe, I know too less about this subject, and it's too complicated for me, yet. But I wanted to ask. 

Greets Raoul

Grand Cycles weren't part of the original channeling in MfM, they came later. The central core, the "spark" is what persists from one Grand Cycle to the next. As far as what happens between Grand Cycles, I haven't any idea. I think we're more like first graders discussing what daddy and mommy do at work.