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Messages - John Roth

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Suggestions/Help / Re: Anyone home?
« on: March 08, 2016, 06:17:26 PM »
I read an email from Dave today announcing reactivation of the forum. I clicked on the link and discovered, barely remembered login info., actually worked, so here I am.

I'm remembering now that I was an active participant in the fourm long long ago prior to the current "upgrade" of code / structure.

I learned MT from the books of Jose Stevens, Shepard  Hoodwin and others, the cassette tapes of JP van  Hulle, and a one time channeling form Arron Christian (which was very helpful in resolving some challenges in my work as a psychotherapist.).

I dropped out for two reasons. One. Channeling began to look like a subtle form of therapy, helping people grow and learn and solve problems of mid life, and that can get old after awhile. Two. Much of forum content was discussion of subtle differences between one channeling and another's, regarding an MT structural element or definition.

For me, enduring value of MT has been its cosmology. It's information about structure and activities in the "between lives state" or "non physical realm." Enduring utility of MT has been the concepts of Soul Age and Role. Lately the concept of fragment of Essence energizing the physical body, and later at death rejoining and adding to Essence has come up while talking with people who use much different explainitory systems. Also it's been fun to see the frontiers of science (quantum stuff / string theory / NDE research) grope toward MT cosmology.

My thanks to Dave for the link. I'll lurk for awhile. Perhaps make some postings.
- Michael Krumper (Overleaves at

I tend to prefer the cosmology as well. Glad to see you're back.

Truthfully, I think that the organization is more of a problem that it is a help. I prefer less structure and more creativity. Other people's opinions may vary.


Suggestions/Help / Re: Anyone home?
« on: March 08, 2016, 06:13:49 PM »
Good to see you, John!

As you know, I've been off in the Twilight Zone for the past couple years.

Do people ever attend the chat? I was debating if I should keep it when I do the new site upgrade.

And I'd love to see something about Michael history.


As far as the chat goes, I've got one person who drops in occasionally. I used to get more until you changed the email invitation to make it look like it was a European thing - I suspect the time is offputting. There are things I could suggest for making the weekly invitation a bit easier to understand.

As far as putting a chat client on the site: don't bother. The major browser vendors are moving to eliminate the ability to use plugins, which is going to kill that kind of chat client. I'd suggest giving a set of simple instructions for Mibbit, which is a web site that's going to keep working.


Suggestions/Help / Re: Anyone home?
« on: March 02, 2016, 05:25:14 PM »
I mostly abandoned the forum when my elderly parents took ill and required additional care. I'll probably do more with this forum after I upgrade the entire MT site in the near future.


I'm back. I've been holding down the chat room for a while. See you. You may be getting a long post on Michael and History in the future.


Michael Math / Re: Michael math as another set of overleaves?
« on: October 30, 2012, 02:23:30 PM »
The numbers are the same as the overleaves, or rather they're the same as the axis. Some students think it's a bit clearer to say someone is in the third position of a cadence, some think it's clearer to say they're in the Warrior position and some think it's clearer to say they're in the ordinal action position. All three say the same thing.

Welcome aboard!

John Roth

The Seven Attitudes / Re: Strange thoughts in Stoic Attitude
« on: March 21, 2012, 12:11:15 AM »
Quote from: John Roth link=topic=234.msg1619#msg1619

The "Serenity Prayer" has been kicking around for a long time. There are multiple versions.

Give me the grace to accept what can't be changed,
The courage to change what can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

The originator probably did not use this as the last line: "and enough ammunition to make it happen."

I agree with Chiara - that doesn't sound very much like Resignation. If it is, you might try the positive pole of the opposite overleaf on the axis: Spiritualist +Verification.

When looking at it again. Your text seems to fit perfectly with me. Guess I'm more a cynic. That always confused me. How can I be cynical about anything, really anything. And why other people aren't.

Cynic is the ordinal action attitude. It's summed up in a few pithy sayings:

"The devil is in the details."

"SNAFU - Situation Normal: All fouled up."

"Murphy always wins."

"Plans are the way it won't happen."

Cheop's Law: "Everything takes longer and costs more."

"The innate perversity of the universe."

Maxim 17: "The longer everything goes according to plan, the worse the impending disaster."

This all sounds horribly negative, but it's really the warrior's attitude: nothing every goes completely right. Cynicism is a defense against people who take a blindly optimistic view of what it actually takes to make something work.

maybe they resemble sages in order to be more accepted and not hurt, because of their priestyness? :/

The big difference between Sages, Priests and Kings is the axis. Sages inform, Priests inspire and Kings direct. They all work with groups. The other overleaves have their effect, of course. A Sage with inspirational overleaves, in particular Passion mode, can look awfully priesty. A Priest in Power mode isn't as sagelike, but he is more likely to get his facts right.

Parallel Universes & Selves / Re: February 7 Nexus/Convergence anyone?
« on: February 20, 2012, 01:59:44 AM »
I don't know. I got a major realization at the beginning and have been preparing to drop something I've been involved in for around eight years. Otherwise, I wonder if that's behind Santorum surging in the polls over Romney.

The Seven Goals / Re: Discrimination and priest role
« on: February 09, 2012, 12:23:27 AM »

I am interested in how some goals mix and match with certain roles.  The priest role, which is about unity, seems to be at odds with the goal of discrimination.  Nevertheless, that combination exists.  What does a fragment with this combination look like, what would be the strengths of this combination, what talents does it facilitate, what career...?

Any input is appreciated.


The priest role is cardinal inspiration, that is, inspiring the masses. I'm not sure where the notion that it's about unity comes from; I've never seen it before.

Discrimination is ordinal expression; it's about quality in the sense of distinguishing between really good stuff and not so good stuff.

A priest in discrimination could inspire people to not settle for a slovenly job, but do better. Or that priest could rail against what they see as wrong.

Suggestions/Help / Re: Board organization
« on: February 04, 2012, 11:14:59 PM »
Hello! I'm glad to have been invited to this forum. Just a suggestion, after perusing the forum for a while. There are a LOT of top-level topics, so many in fact that it's kind of hard to navigate... too much distribution of topics, imo. Merging many of the topics into less specific boards with topical threads might make them more appealing to visitors. There are so many, honestly I don't know where to post. Keep up the good work!

David set it up that way originally, and I've never felt the desire to reorganize it.

In any case, I generally use the "show unread posts" feature, so it doesn't matter where anyone puts a post. It pops up when it occurs to me to sign on.

John Roth

Its not so much evangelizing the teachings as a whole, but producing the information to the masses, so they can benefit the value of learning more about the universe they live in. Its all about finding the common demoninator amongst all "spiritual" teachings, and finding more core truths out. You know we have scientists furthering the evolvement of knowledge and truth by examining the concrete reality around us, michael teachings is merely information categorized into a template that furthers evolvement of our reality of more abstract concepts.

What I'm all about is trying to getting valuable slightly more esoteric knowledge for the masses to indulge in. I don't mean sermonizing the teachings as a religious opportunity towards enlightenment, but merely having the basic core of the teachings presented into simple methods of understanding. If that makes sense. As what Jordan Dutchynz (sp?) did with his spirit science video's, its all about presenting ideas that formulate new age metaphysical truths for the general populace, to get them to have a clearer view and understanding of everything spiritual and mystical as a whole.

Honestly my biggest peeve about the teachings is it's name. I hate using the name Michael, because it almost acts as a repellent as getting those whom don't have agreements with the Michael engaged with the information provided, so they themselves can have stepping stones to jump forward on so to speak when is comes down to thinking about the larger picture and whom they actually are, and why we're here all here. It's like it glamorizes the messenger more then the message with the name Michael before the teaching.

You might consider writing fiction. IMO the best attempt to date has been some of John Dalmas' stories. There's another story cycle that does an excellent job of treating reincarnation and the entanglements of several people in different lifetimes in a culture that evolves over several centuries.

Essence / Re: Essence or Soul or Higher Self
« on: January 26, 2012, 04:49:53 PM »
All of those terms could be used interchangeably if you don't want to get too technical. I sort of like the term soul used to denote a single incarnation and rely on the term essence to represent the collective self, or repository that contains all previous incarnations, including the kitchen sink, I suspect. But I don't think it matters that much.

And you could make a similar argument with the term, fragment. I've heard it used to represent both essence and the individual incarnation. Essence is indeed a fragment of the Tao and the soul in our body is a fragment of essence. It's all the same source energy, though, so how you choose to assign these terms is a matter of personal preference.


That viewpoint impedes communication. There's a reason why technical terminology (jargon if you will) doesn't always mean what the same word means in the wider culture. That's also the reason why some people get really bent out of shape when the mass media appropriates a term that has a well-understood meaning and perverts it to another meaning. For example, take "hacker." It originally meant someone who sits at a keyboard and hacks at a program he's writing. The media perverted it to mean someone who breaks into someone else's computer.

Astrology / Re: Michael & Astrology
« on: January 11, 2012, 03:06:21 PM »
I think the role and the casting can be accurately compared to sun sign and rising sign, but further than that I have not attempted to make any correlations.
As I am also an aries, I think it´s also connected to flow. Because aries says: "Get lively again". And this feels/felt more or less right.
 I don´t know if it fits with artisan and priest casting.

I would think it fits more with your mode. Aries is cardinal fire, which means it's initiating and enthusiastic.

Spirituality / Re: Decording?
« on: January 11, 2012, 03:00:55 PM »
Does anyone have advice about how to remove unwanted cords? From someone like, say, one's mother?

Cords are the energetic manifestation of a relationship.

Jose Steven's advice is pretty typical. Most decording advice is good for removing obsolete and "drive-by" cords where there is no current or continuing relationship. It's also good if you really want to terminate the relationship.

Permanently removing all of the cords from your mother may be difficult.  For a cord to attach, it's got to have something within you to attach to. Unless you want to completely write your mother out of your life, you may want to work on transforming the relationship instead.

People who are attracted to the teaching usually have an agreement with Michael, frequently over several lifetimes. There are a few people who discovered Michael while they were incarnate and became intrigued, but that's fairly rare. That's why the teaching is loaded with first and second cadre people. It's not that those two cadres have most of the late mature and old souls -- far from it. It's that those two cadres are in an energetic relationship with the Michael entity where Michael is an obvious candidate for the teacher slot.

Really?  I'm in cadre 2.  Where can I learn more about the agreement with Michael and/or the energetic relationship?

As far as the agreement goes, that really all I know - there is an agreement, which means that there is an established relationship before the personality first discovers the teaching on the physical plane. That's why there is an immediate recognition.

Cadres 1 and 2 are the first cadres in the energy ring immediately after the one containing the Michael entity. Shephard Hoodwin has a thorough discussion of this in The Journey of your Soul, and the relevant excerpt is posted on the site at:

You'll notice what Shephard calls a cadre group is the same arrangement that J.P. calls an energy ring, and that they've got somewhat of a disagreement - Shepard has Michael in the ring two in front of ours, while JP has them in the ring immediately preceding ours.

There are several other articles on cadres and entities at

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