The "I" of it all

[barblu]

After pondering this for a long, long while - intensely for the last few months - it seems to me that we are all spinning our wheels somewhat.  Everyone is giving forth their opinions and descriptions of everything and they all start with "I" - simply because, as human physical beings, that's ALL we can understand.  How does one describe what happens in the silence of meditation when a huge breakthrough occurs and understanding just IS?  How do "I" tell "you" with words when all either of us can communicate is our human understanding - only our soul/essence/inner being/fragment can know what's beyond the veil and the physical "I" is allowed only a mere peek from time to time. 

That said, I (the physical one) find it rather amusing and perhaps a bit pompous when someone deigns to tell us all how it is - here, in the hereafter, worldly or astral.  When I hear someone describe the astral, the TAO, the akashic library, the meaning of life, what the perfect world would be like, etc, etc, my first thought is "How do you KNOW?"    I read somewhere that even the Michaels can't describe the TAO at this point in their evolution.

But still we try.  We are all in this together and the search for the WHY is great.  The desire to understand is overwhelming sometimes.  All humans are searching - not all from the same viewpoint but all for the answers that slake their own personal thirst.  And, because the answers we arrive at appease us, it is human to think they are the right answers and try to get others to join us in our "knowledge" - whether we be scientist, pastor, housewife, artist or guru - or whomever!  So "I" sit here and think "Wow, "I" don't know!!!" and somewhere deep inside of me there is something saying "It doesn't matter that "you" don't know - I know!!!"

[kenneth Margo]

I do agree with you . You make  very pertinent points. Soul evolution is about being beyond the I. New to the Michael channel (though not the messages) I (pardon) am surprised at the need that  so many supposedly advanced souls have to attach labels to their infinity  and advertise it . Eg 'I am a 6th level mature soul, I have difficulty with..etc'.).   Is it loneliness ?, confusion about identity?, hoping that this label will provide the answer since my last one   'a Libra'   or a  Sethite , or  Woman or Caregiver or Father or Writer or  whatever didnt 'give' me what I need ? . Or is it a desire for contact  with others by letting it all hang out? (in which case for me it would have the opposite effect.) How many I's do we and society attach to ourselves and still we know it does not tell a millionth about what we really are (potential infinite souls). So for me (here I go again) , its more important to understand from within, ie   develop intuition as to how to act, be , in a given situation . And since this depends on the moment there is no label which suffices.
$60 later, to know  one is a third  level whatever  with such and such overleaves and chief features and other terms which I never read in the original Michael books makes no difference,might only  be making someone else richer, and can be used as an excuse for not empathising , acting for the good and  extending ones awareness.     

[John Roth]

I do agree with you . You make  very pertinent points. Soul evolution is about being beyond the I. New to the Michael channel (though not the messages) I (pardon) am surprised at the need that  so many supposedly advanced souls have to attach labels to their infinity  and advertise it . Eg 'I am a 6th level mature soul, I have difficulty with..etc'.).   Is it loneliness ?, confusion about identity?, hoping that this label will provide the answer since my last one   'a Libra'   or a  Sethite , or  Woman or Caregiver or Father or Writer or  whatever didnt 'give' me what I need ? . Or is it a desire for contact  with others by letting it all hang out? (in which case for me it would have the opposite effect.) How many I's do we and society attach to ourselves and still we know it does not tell a millionth about what we really are (potential infinite souls). So for me (here I go again) , its more important to understand from within, ie   develop intuition as to how to act, be , in a given situation . And since this depends on the moment there is no label which suffices.

$60 later, to know  one is a third  level whatever  with such and such overleaves and chief features and other terms which I never read in the original Michael books makes no difference,might only  be making someone else richer, and can be used as an excuse for not empathising , acting for the good and  extending ones awareness.     

I'm going to be harsh here. What I'm seeing in your post is the "labels are baaaaaad" argument. Followed by a whole lot of implied insults to people who use them and a pretense of moral superiority for not doing so.

You may think the above characterization is unfair. So is what you said. I'm just more honest about it, since I'm not clothing it in a "holier than thou" frame.

A large part of the Michael Teaching is a system of personality description that most Michael Students find to be quite useful. It's basic to the material; rejecting it out of hand could well be valid for you, but it also strongly suggests that the MT isn't going to be where you're going to find a home.

Most students don't understand the entire personality description when they first get theirs channeled. It takes a significant amount of work and self-examination to determine what parts are correct and what parts aren't. As Socrates is reputed to have said (in Classical Greek, of course): "The unexamined life is not worth living."

One thing that may help is to look at the poles of the role of Scholar: +knowledge, -theory. Theory would be using the personality system without enough real world experience of people and how the descriptions do and don't work in practice. Knowledge is acquired by plunging in and gaining that experience.

[kenneth Margo]

Sorry John. The topic is the 'I' of it all. All I'm saying is that I think that  the more we emphasize the I , the less easily we will be able to eventually  lose it. A perfectly legitimate view grounded in the roots of Tao , buddism and ancient Hinduism. Thats my take.  Please without attacking me (this post is not for you) tell us  What's your take on the  'I' as related to the Michael teachings? 

[John Roth]

Sorry John. The topic is the 'I' of it all. All I'm saying is that I think that  the more we emphasize the I , the less easily we will be able to eventually  lose it. A perfectly legitimate view grounded in the roots of Tao , buddism and ancient Hinduism. Thats my take.  Please without attacking me (this post is not for you) tell us  What's your take on the  'I' as related to the Michael teachings?

The Michael Teachings doesn't talk about the "I". False personality, yes, that's a term from the M.T. As far as the other things you're trying to drag into the mix, MfM has Michael stating specifically that Hinduism is very distorted and Buddhism only somewhat less so. It says Taoism is the least distorted of the three, which does not mean that it isn't distorted.

The point I'm trying to get across here is that "losing the 'I'" or "losing the ego" is not, and let me repeat that, NOT a goal of the Michael Teaching. It belongs to other paths.

HTH

John Roth

[kenneth Margo]

Forgive me for 'dragging in' my interpretation. I thought that is what Forums are for.So let me quote  From the Messages of Michael (Yarboro Berkley paperback)
 - P57- 'Loving, the creative force  itself requires seperation from any personification.' My interpretation= losing the I )
' P64 -'We are all part of the creative force we call the TAo...  Imagine filling ten test tubes  then sealing them untill they are both airtight and watertight. They are part of the whole....The same way the body is trapped in the body..The Soul in its true spiritual state has no limitations or handicaps. )My interpretation =the soul in its true spiritual state is beyond the limitations of the  isolated self concious I )
P61. 'The overriding trait of this culture is loneliness. You are the loneliest people we know of...it is unnecessary and something that the personality effects as a matter to keep the battle going '/  . My interpretation- Fear causes  loneliness and  manifests in an emphasis on the 'I' which is nothing less than the false personality
P87 -'You will lose your individual perceptions long before you become a mid causal teacher' . My interpretation - We are evolving in th ephysical to a state where we will be beyond individual perceptions ,ie the 'I' am ,think,feel.know'
 As for the religions I try not to confuse the teachings of the infinite souls  with the manifestations of of them in the religions. Michael says that agape is the ultimate goal of soul evolution in the physical. As did Jesus and Budda

I'd be interested to here what your interpretation of the above quotes might  be and whether you have others which could shed more light on this question. 

[John Roth]

Forgive me for 'dragging in' my interpretation. I thought that is what Forums are for.So let me quote  From the Messages of Michael (Yarboro Berkley paperback)
 - P57- 'Loving, the creative force  itself requires seperation from any personification.' My interpretation= losing the I )
' P64 -'We are all part of the creative force we call the TAo...  Imagine filling ten test tubes  then sealing them untill they are both airtight and watertight. They are part of the whole....The same way the body is trapped in the body..The Soul in its true spiritual state has no limitations or handicaps. )My interpretation =the soul in its true spiritual state is beyond the limitations of the  isolated self concious I )
P61. 'The overriding trait of this culture is loneliness. You are the loneliest people we know of...it is unnecessary and something that the personality effects as a matter to keep the battle going '/  . My interpretation- Fear causes  loneliness and  manifests in an emphasis on the 'I' which is nothing less than the false personality
P87 -'You will lose your individual perceptions long before you become a mid causal teacher' . My interpretation - We are evolving in th ephysical to a state where we will be beyond individual perceptions ,ie the 'I' am ,think,feel.know'
 As for the religions I try not to confuse the teachings of the infinite souls  with the manifestations of of them in the religions. Michael says that agape is the ultimate goal of soul evolution in the physical. As did Jesus and Budda

I'd be interested to here what your interpretation of the above quotes might  be and whether you have others which could shed more light on this question.

When you try to encapsulate something in three words, you can't do the concept justice except by reference to some body of beliefs that's held by some group of people. Everything you've said about it to date leads me to place that with "spiritual" teachings that have transcendence or "enlightenment" as a goal. Michael has said, specifically (p.22),

WE ARE NOT THE PATH TO SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT. WE OFFER A WAY TO HUMAN UNDERSTANDING BASED ON OUR OWN EXPERIENCE, FIRST AS HUMANS OURSELVES IN BOTH TROUBLED AND TRANQUIL TIMES AND NOW AS THE REINTEGRATED FRAGMENTS OF A CAUSAL BODY NO LONGER ALIVE AS YOU KNOW IT BUT STILL WITH KEEN AWARENESS OF WHAT BEING HUMAN ENTAILS.

A couple of sentences later:

WE ARE NOT THE PATH. WE ARE AN ANCIENT ENTITY THAT COMES TO ALL WHO ASK. OUR PURPOSE IS TO TEACH SOME UNDERSTANDING OF THE EVOLUTION ON THE PHYSICAL PLANE SO THAT THE STUDENT CAN REACH SOME INSIGHT INTO HUMAN BEHAVIOR WHICH WILL ENABLE HIM THEN TO STOP BROODING OVER INTERPERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS OR THE LACK THEREOF AND CONCENTRATE ON PERSONAL LIFE PLANS.

The way I interpret this is to look at exactly what they've said: quit angsting over relationships or the lack of them, and get on with what Essence has planned for your lifetime.

If the search for enlightenment is your life plan, great. Many people do that in one or more lifetimes, many (possibly most) people don't ever do it in any lifetime.

[kenneth Margo]

Perhaps again a question of semantics. But any thinking person will ask the question 'why' as well as trying to understand the what and the how.  The  'essence ' (forgive the word ) of Michael 's teaching is he presents   a system  which systematically and clearly defines what constitutes the stages of the soul ages, and says  that over many lifetimes we progress  on our personal  path from stage to stage and from age to age using different  roles, overleaves etc.
Why is it so annoying to you when I give my understanding of  'why' we are on this path , especially as Michael does hint at it when he  talks of agape being an ultimate. My understanding of agape is unconditional and  impersonal love for all energy, which implies losing the I , the theme of this topic which I tried to address.
 Nowhere have I said that I will ever get their in this lifetime or in the forseeable countless lifetimes. I am merely am making a  'philosophical ' point and keeping an ultimate goal in view. Gradual unfolding   enlightenment is as good a word as any to me for understanding what happens to the soul as it   progresses over several lifetimes through the stasges and  ages.( I dont confuse it with 'ecstacy'  which is perhaps what you thought I meant,and is a momentary flash of intuitive understanding often drug induced ).

[John Roth]

Perhaps again a question of semantics. But any thinking person will ask the question 'why' as well as trying to understand the what and the how.  The  'essence ' (forgive the word ) of Michael 's teaching is he presents   a system  which systematically and clearly defines what constitutes the stages of the soul ages, and says  that over many lifetimes we progress  on our personal  path from stage to stage and from age to age using different  roles, overleaves etc.
Why is it so annoying to you when I give my understanding of  'why' we are on this path , especially as Michael does hint at it when he  talks of agape being an ultimate. My understanding of agape is unconditional and  impersonal love for all energy, which implies losing the I , the theme of this topic which I tried to address.
 Nowhere have I said that I will ever get their in this lifetime or in the forseeable countless lifetimes. I am merely am making a  'philosophical ' point and keeping an ultimate goal in view. Gradual unfolding   enlightenment is as good a word as any to me for understanding what happens to the soul as it   progresses over several lifetimes through the stasges and  ages.( I dont confuse it with 'ecstacy'  which is perhaps what you thought I meant,and is a momentary flash of intuitive understanding often drug induced ).

Go back to the first post you made in this thread, which I'm going to repeat below. I've underlined some key phrases.

I do agree with you . You make  very pertinent points. Soul evolution is about being beyond the I. New to the Michael channel (though not the messages) I (pardon) am surprised at the need that  so many supposedly advanced souls have to attach labels to their infinity  and advertise it . Eg 'I am a 6th level mature soul, I have difficulty with..etc'.).   Is it loneliness ?, confusion about identity?, hoping that this label will provide the answer since my last one   'a Libra'   or a  Sethite , or  Woman or Caregiver or Father or Writer or  whatever didnt 'give' me what I need ? . Or is it a desire for contact  with others by letting it all hang out? (in which case for me it would have the opposite effect.) How many I's do we and society attach to ourselves and still we know it does not tell a millionth about what we really are (potential infinite souls). So for me (here I go again) , its more important to understand from within, ie   develop intuition as to how to act, be , in a given situation . And since this depends on the moment there is no label which suffices.
$60 later, to know  one is a third  level whatever  with such and such overleaves and chief features and other terms which I never read in the original Michael books makes no difference,might only  be making someone else richer, and can be used as an excuse for not empathising , acting for the good and  extending ones awareness.     

According to the Michael Teaching, no, soul evolution is not about "being beyond the I."

Is someone in high school studying algebra "more advanced" than someone in second grade studying addition? According to some, yes, but it's not an advancement that's due to anything but the passage of time and learning what comes to everyone with that passage of time. You applied the label "supposedly advanced souls" to the people who are studying the teaching and then taking them to task for doing things that are not supposedly characteristic of "advanced souls."

There's no merit badge for having, after immense struggle, arrived at the august age of 13 and entered high school. Everyone will reach that age unless they die first. Having reached that age, they will reach 14, then 15, then 16. Unless they die first. It's simply part of growing up, and it will happen regardless. Applying the label "advanced soul" indicates some kind of maya. A feeling of superiority, possibly smugness at having attained something few others have managed.

To repeat what I said in that first post, the centerpiece of the Michael Teaching is a personality classification system. If you think that people should somehow be "beyond labels," well and good, but that's not the MT. People who think their life task is to learn to be loving by avoiding labels are in a different classroom, studying a different teaching. They're not going to be very comfortable in this classroom. Neither classroom is superior to the other.

Being a part of the MT means, among other things, learning the personality classification system and also learning how to apply it appropriately. It's not appropriate to think that it's a hard-and-fast system of rigid categories. If I say, for example, that I have an attitude of Idealist it simply means that my approach to things tends to be closer to that archetype than it is to, for example, Cynic or Pragmatist. It doesn't mean that everyone with that label is the same, because they aren't. It does mean that there are enough similarities to justify forming a cluster.

So far, I haven't seen you actually trying to deal with what I'm saying. You seem to be attempting to justify your original statements.

[jk]

New to the Michael channel (though not the messages) I (pardon) am surprised at the need that  so many supposedly advanced souls have to attach labels to their infinity  and advertise it . Eg 'I am a 6th level mature soul, I have difficulty with..etc'.).   Is it loneliness ?, confusion about identity?, hoping that this label will provide the answer since my last one   'a Libra'   or a  Sethite , or  Woman or Caregiver or Father or Writer or  whatever didnt 'give' me what I need ? . Or is it a desire for contact  with others by letting it all hang out? (in which case for me it would have the opposite effect.) How many I's do we and society attach to ourselves and still we know it does not tell a millionth about what we really are (potential infinite souls). So for me (here I go again) , its more important to understand from within, ie   develop intuition as to how to act, be , in a given situation . And since this depends on the moment there is no label which suffices.
$60 later, to know  one is a third  level whatever  with such and such overleaves and chief features and other terms which I never read in the original Michael books makes no difference,might only  be making someone else richer, and can be used as an excuse for not empathising , acting for the good and  extending ones awareness.     

kenneth Margo, when I publish my overleaves on sites such as this one, I do so because I enjoy checking out overleaves of others and I let others do the same. I do not do it as an advert for anything, expression of loneliness, or the other things you mention.

I enjoy Michael Teachings and learning about the Overleaves system and I attempt and strive (don't always succeed) to use it as means of understanding myself and others. As I progress in the study of it and learning what each overleaf means, where better to get a practise in this then observing it in people and then checking out my perception agains the channeling they have got? I have a long way to go to get good at this, but I can now spot couple of overleaves quite well and guess a Role, Casting or ET Role somewhere in the mixture in about 50% of cases. The overleaves that others publish allow me to check against - they provide study material in short. So I provide mine. That is my reason. 

I certainly did not get my overleaves with the intention to publish them, but as another way to get myself better. But I do understand why someone would have a rant about labels. But then - everything is a label if you wish to perceive it that way and you can find many for each and every one of us, some that we would wear proudly, some that get hidden very deep inside. Michael did not provide overleaves for that use.

I am getting a little tired of people treating Yarbro books as a Bible and all that comes after as invalid. Yarbro is excellent, but it is basic, especially with all the editing done to the material that came through. The fact that she claims that "her" group or "her" channels are the only "real" ones or whatever, certainly does not make it true. I did not even get that vibe from these claims. What I got was - there is a lot of crap out there. Well sure, but leave it upto me to tell for myself. I can do so.

Channels getting richer? I seriously doubt you can get rich from channeling for money.

Soul evolution is about being beyond the I

Soul evolution is via experiences. That includes all experiences. Evolving beyond fragmentation happens on the way, and then we Fragment again. And then we reintegrate again. Over and over again. All of it is a valid part.

The point I'm trying to get across here is that "losing the 'I'" or "losing the ego" is not, and let me repeat that, NOT a goal of the Michael Teaching. It belongs to other paths.

Well I cannot recall of the top of my head how much of it has made it into Yarbro books, but TOMG channeling included a lot on the topic of individuality being an illusion, separateness being an illusion etc. It does not come off this strongly from other Michael materials I have come across so far, but it does permeate in gentle way through it in my opinion. The very word Fragment seems to have been chosen to show us and lead us to this understanding.
Michael also gives us exercises that help to transcend the feeling of separateness temporarily and at least one of those has made it into a Yarbro book (the one with experiencing the sun rays as various living things outside our selves).

Ego is a problematic word, because it is not used consistently. Mostly people use it to describe what Michael would call False Personality. But Michael would not call that "ego". Semantics aside, when used in the sense of "False Personality", yes I would say that fundamental part of the teaching is evolving towards positive poles, i.e. Wholeness, i.e. beyond False Personality.

[kenneth Margo]

Ah so  the big guns are out to discipline the apostate. Why do you feel so threatened? You have decided that  there is an orthodox way of understanding Michael , and those who see it ,or get inspired by it differently are wrong. That is called  dogma. And anyone who differs is an apostate . History repeats itself. A truth comes along. Some ,mainly younger souls busily  interpret it set up an organisation, church , website whatever, and get very angry with those who ask why , or dont fit with their established dogma.  Its all happened before. Your anger and irritation betrays you. Real old souls wouldnt react this way.   

[John Roth]

Ah so  the big guns are out to discipline the apostate. Why do you feel so threatened? You have decided that  there is an orthodox way of understanding Michael , and those who see it ,or get inspired by it differently are wrong. That is called  dogma. And anyone who differs is an apostate . History repeats itself. A truth comes along. Some ,mainly younger souls busily  interpret it set up an organisation, church , website whatever, and get very angry with those who ask why , or dont fit with their established dogma.  Its all happened before. Your anger and irritation betrays you. Real old souls wouldnt react this way.

So you know how "real old souls" would react, eh? So far all I've heard from you is the same warmed-over dogma about love I got in church as a child. Dressed in new age clothes, of course.

http://www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/admin.htm

[mtscholar]

Trust me, old souls can get irritated.